tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post9047850559109216061..comments2023-06-25T11:35:22.634-04:00Comments on Evil League of Evil Writers: A Rape Culture Primer for Writers - ConsentSkyla Dawnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02094497198550621780noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-29085976344608536122013-03-24T14:38:49.775-04:002013-03-24T14:38:49.775-04:00Really, that's the thing--according to law, it...Really, that's the thing--according to law, it flat out IS assault if you touch a sleeping person in a sexual way. Consent MUST BE continuous and contemporaneous. Because what else would the law say? That consent isn't necessary if the people involved were previously intimate partners? That used to be in the law and it said there was no such thing as marital rape, which we know is not true.<br /><br />The "common sense" others have called for is that it's up to the conscious individual to ensure consent has been given. Don't want to maybe be charged with assault? Either don't touch a sleeping person or communicate enough with your partner that you're reasonably certain they'd like to be woken with a groping. End of story, full stop. That is the law.<br /><br />As for fiction, of course certain liberties are taken--all I've called for is that writers a) be aware of what consent is, and b) tread carefully and examine how they treat these things. <br /><br />Random, as a fellow Canuck, ever see the Canadian movie Kissed? Necrophilia romance! Skyla Dawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02094497198550621780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-9525905351408005772013-03-24T14:27:04.336-04:002013-03-24T14:27:04.336-04:00*Dina drops mic* *walks off stage* *Dina drops mic* *walks off stage* Skyla Dawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02094497198550621780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-8555375032008279252013-03-22T08:22:43.657-04:002013-03-22T08:22:43.657-04:00As I mentioned on Skyla's Blog what most peopl...As I mentioned on Skyla's Blog what most people don't get is that RAPE = MURDER. The person that existed before that moment is gone, destroyed, done...bring out the shovel, say the prayers.Done. That is how serious it is, How damaging to the ID and EGO.<br /><br />When our movies and books don't cover consent we are giving credence to the view that we don't own our own bodies. Thus DATE RAPE.... had to explain this one to a couple of "dates" just because you paid for dinner, you did not "pay to play" That I was not a whore and could not be "purchased".<br /><br />Anne Bishop did an incredible series (IMHO) The Black Jewels Trilogy that covers systemic sexual abuse. From children to men. I read these books and own them in hard cover because I love them so much. Recently on Goodreads went and read the reviews. <br /><br />Alot of reviewers thought it was too dark and rapey, when all she did is take historical and current male roles of rape and victimization made those characters female and the victims children and men. <br /><br />Its this societal denial that makes rape a punchline for comedy, or the non discussion of consent acceptable. No-one wants to hear it....and you can still hear it today that women use RAPE as a tool to get what they want from men. I actually hear it more from women than men, and that's truly sad.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15163432388675786635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-23600671928860216602013-03-22T08:02:35.726-04:002013-03-22T08:02:35.726-04:00Krista, are you a fellow Edmontonian???
I whole ...Krista, are you a fellow Edmontonian???<br /><br />I whole heartedly agree. My fiance and I got into a heated discussion in regards to the sleep and sex thing. Showing he was totally male his biggest concern was can the police charge me with rape if you tell your friend I woke you up by having sex with you. Which proved to me on some level HE knew it was wrong. He finally relented and said yeah, sex with an unconcious person to him seems more like necrophilia than sex. <br /><br />Necrophilia can't be made sexy it is an ewwwww factor. (Sex with the undead is not necophilia as the are un-dead)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15163432388675786635noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-42333986490919845252013-03-19T22:24:59.673-04:002013-03-19T22:24:59.673-04:00In defense of the "blanket" asleep state...In defense of the "blanket" asleep statement (HA HA PUNNY!), here's my five cents (inflation - plus they're supposedly doing away with the penny up there, yeah?):<br /><br />Having worked in many a setting where these kinds of incidents crop up on a regular basis, I wish to note that a person of altered consciousness (I did a post about that) CANNOT GIVE CONSENT. <br /><br />This includes any altered level of consciousness, including someone who has been awakened from sleep. There's a window of about 5-10 seconds in which a person's level of consciousness is significantly altered (from asleep to awake, as we're all well aware of - "I'm not awake yet.") and they cannot legally be held responsible for what they do. This is why people get accidentally shot in the middle of the night by someone in the house they've woken up, because in that brief moment, reality/perception/cognitive function is altered.<br /><br />It should go without saying that this also applies to anyone who is UNCONSCIOUS. <br /><br />An unconscious person cannot give consent. To anything. Period. This is why hospitals have medical proxys/powers of attorney for people who are unresponsive, because they CANNOT DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES. They cannot give consent. <br /><br />This is the purpose living wills serve as well. All those papers you fill out before surgery that say, "if you are unable to make decisions for yourself...."<br /><br />And so on.<br /><br />If a person is not full - and I mean FULL, as in COMPLETE, ALL, TOTAL - possession of their cognitive abilities, no matter the cause (trauma, drugs, alcohol, medical issues), they cannot give consent. For anything.<br /><br />Period.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14982591623341692499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-56940850002485119322013-03-19T21:43:52.649-04:002013-03-19T21:43:52.649-04:00I just did that as an exercise - had a male charac...I just did that as an exercise - had a male character make lewd comments about my FMC to my MMC, and it occurred to me that there was no reason why the comments couldn't be made by a woman. So I changed it, and suddenly I've got a new, fun, lewd, awesome side character waiting to cause havoc :DNicola Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15826022131723221889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-12195265865425261102013-03-19T20:57:35.663-04:002013-03-19T20:57:35.663-04:00Oh yes, the love interest/mom for good characters,...Oh yes, the love interest/mom for good characters, or shrew/bitch for nasty ones -- lazy writing can quickly turn into sexist or misogynist writing.<br />After reading abut the Bechdel Test, I decided to apply it to my own WIP and realized many characters could as easily be female as male, and so switched genders on a lot of them, and then gave them better backstories than they'd had. Was embarrassing how many walking cliches I had in it.David Jón Fullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13214464940911202724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-24527271977551501112013-03-19T19:36:45.742-04:002013-03-19T19:36:45.742-04:00I think you hit the nail on the head. It's sor...I think you hit the nail on the head. It's sort of like...I've run into things from often-male writers where it's like they don't know what to do with female characters, so they are all either mothers or love interests. So the thought process--for both genders of writers--often seems to boil down to, "Okay, she has a VAGINA, so...what do vagina-people do again? Oh right, they get raped, have babies, and get married." You're absolutely right, the less of a character she has, the more those shorthands seem to crop up. Skyla Dawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02094497198550621780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-11071783777627232562013-03-19T19:31:08.394-04:002013-03-19T19:31:08.394-04:00Excellent, YES. Absolutely. Thank you for commenti...Excellent, YES. Absolutely. Thank you for commenting (I didn't find it rantish at all)! Skyla Dawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02094497198550621780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-65886091186346261542013-03-19T19:07:09.071-04:002013-03-19T19:07:09.071-04:00Had a note to make on the "While you're a...Had a note to make on the "While you're asleep" caveat which (since I got all excited and didn't bother reading the rest of the comments) may or may not have been addressed: I've known more than one person who has taken a sleep aid drug, like ambien, and woken up realising someone (in one case, the long-term partner) had had sex with them while they were 'asleep'. This caused real problems in that relationship, because that partner kept doing it even after the person told them to please not. Issues of knowing when someone is awake or sleepwalking aside, the onus is on the person who did not take the drug to look out for the person who did, particularly if you're supposed to give a damn. Kay? /rant over.Nicola Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15826022131723221889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-64705251683818453992013-03-19T18:00:07.166-04:002013-03-19T18:00:07.166-04:00Hm, that's interesting -- kudos to the game wr...Hm, that's interesting -- kudos to the game writers, then.<br />I wonder if writers, of either gender, who use rape as a fallback "most awful thing" are not just showing a lack of depth in character development for that female character. That is, if the first, or only thing you can think of as "most awful" is rape, then that suggests to me the writer is assuming either her inherent vulnerability is her defining characteristic, or perhaps, her identity as a sexual object. More character development = more potential "most awful things" that could happen, narratively.David Jón Fullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13214464940911202724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-65551682074909026232013-03-19T17:46:23.685-04:002013-03-19T17:46:23.685-04:00You're articulating it perfectly and I totally...You're articulating it perfectly and I totally hear what you're saying. <br /><br />You know, I think it's the same thing in YA with the dead parents. "What's the worst thing that can happen to a kid? Dead parents!" (Unless they're a girl; then it's rape. Double points for raped orphan.)<br /><br />I just finished playing the new Tomb Raider, and there was a LOT of attention ahead of time about Lara possibly getting raped, etc, and it all turned out to be bad PR, but that was what the issue brought up: WHY did she HAVE TO BE raped? WHY did that HAVE TO BE her defining moment? As it turned out, despite the bad-touching from an antagonist, failing to hit the right buttons during the scene resulted in murder, not rape, BUT the whole thing was written much better than expected. Her defining moment wasn't almost being raped, it was an epiphany as she first killed a man. It was realizing she'd reached a point where she had to become someone else--beyond merely resourceful, but possibly a killer--to survive and save her friends. And I found it really powerful for that reason. It COULD Have been what everyone feared, just another heroine-defined-by-rape moment, and it was much more nuanced. It might not have worked for everyone, but as a player--and woman--it worked for me. Skyla Dawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02094497198550621780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-43700963184982436392013-03-19T17:34:53.934-04:002013-03-19T17:34:53.934-04:00Yes, and that too, is partly what bugged me about ...Yes, and that too, is partly what bugged me about the scene I was writing. It became the defining moment in her whole backstory, to the exclusion of anything else. It was lazy writing on my part not to have MORE to her, however well I struggled to write that scene and its aftermath.<br />It isn't necessarily, but I think it can be, a way of "othering" rape victims, by implying it's the only bad thing that can happen to a woman. As I write that I don't know if I'm articulating it quite right. But it seems to relegate the experience to a cliché, which, to me, diminishes all rape victims.David Jón Fullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13214464940911202724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-80466217943409936852013-03-19T17:18:42.848-04:002013-03-19T17:18:42.848-04:00That's an excellent point and something I'...That's an excellent point and something I'd like to talk about in future posts as well, as it's something that tends to divide writers. Some writers will not have their female protags raped ever, full stop, the end. And I completely respect that. On the other hand, I frequently revisit this issue in my fiction (both male and female characters). I write it different ways, in different circumstances, with different outcomes, all to both process and transmute. <br /><br />And there's really no right answer. Why is/was this character raped? What am I trying to say? How will this change her? Does it NEED to change her? It's something we question, I think, with damn near every decision we make when writing (everything must serve a purpose) but it seems so emotionally charged because it's so very real to so many people.<br /><br />I write rape because I want to show men and women heal from it. I want to show it's real, it happens, and it's wrong no matter the circumstances (or how hot the guy is). To give characters the strength I don't have, to give readers hope and tell them they aren't alone.<br /><br />I'd say the only time I have a real problem with it--besides writers (of books AND films, as movies inspired a lot of this) missing the concept of consent--is when rape is used as shorthand for character development. Need a traumatic past? Just rape her! There you go! *sigh* No. Just...no. Skyla Dawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02094497198550621780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-24108707368336397922013-03-19T17:04:01.328-04:002013-03-19T17:04:01.328-04:00I struggled with this in a particular (and crucial...I struggled with this in a particular (and crucial) scene in which the main character underwent a sexual assault, and though I felt it reflected the experience without glorifying it or condoning it, I could not answer the question of, why is the main character forced to be the victim in this? Was I not basically saying that was her role? I partly wanted to reflect the reality of what I knew had happened to women I knew, but as part of the story, it still just seemed to be -- woman character gets raped/assaulted.. Posts like yours help me articulate why I was not happy with this, and why I felt no matter how "realistic" I was trying to be, it was not enough. The whole function of the scene in the story, even contextually, was still problematic.David Jón Fullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13214464940911202724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-23749632548766252452013-03-19T16:53:57.328-04:002013-03-19T16:53:57.328-04:00how do you ignore a reality like this? How do you ...<i>how do you ignore a reality like this? How do you write with it as context without reinforcing it? How can you change the culture by treating the subject honestly? </i><br /><br />Precisely the right questions all writers should be be asking, and I think it all begins with awareness. Same as any other issue we write about, whether it's racism or diverse characters, etc. Know the tropes, know why they're problematic (which I attempted to explain here), and be aware of how you treat it when writing. We're all bound to fumble a bit but we're likely to do a better job of it if we're at least trying. (And I absolutely include myself in this as I have to watch what stereotypes and negative ideas I'm reinforcing too.) Given the number of people hellbent on claiming Steubenville's Jane Doe consented <i>despite being legally unable to</i> is appalling and a clear indication <i>everyone</i> needs to be having this conversation, including within our fiction. <br /><br />Thanks for reading and commenting! Skyla Dawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02094497198550621780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-89642210085459744812013-03-19T16:44:30.844-04:002013-03-19T16:44:30.844-04:00This isn't the first post I've read about ...This isn't the first post I've read about this recently, but it's a great one and should be read by writers of all genres! I've been troubled both by the experiences of sexual assault some of the women I know have told me about, and also how I approach it in my fiction -- how do you ignore a reality like this? How do you write with it as context without reinforcing it? How can you change the culture by treating the subject honestly? I think this post addresses some of these points, for which I also applaud you.David Jón Fullerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13214464940911202724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-50419562550906704072013-03-19T15:37:18.508-04:002013-03-19T15:37:18.508-04:00This isn't complicated. Sexual assault = sexua...This isn't complicated. Sexual assault = sexual contact without consent. Consent = agreeing to something without being tricked, coerced/threatened/forced, and of sound mind, and it must be continuous and contemporaneous.<br /><br />And as I repeated over and over, choosing to do write these things in fiction is something that should be done with care and awareness. Aka...common sense. Because repeating the same tropes over and over that disregard consent is not only lazy but contributing to a bullshit culture that normalizes rape. First step: understanding consent and taking care how we treat it in our work. Skyla Dawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02094497198550621780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-59540072625789161952013-03-19T15:30:47.840-04:002013-03-19T15:30:47.840-04:00No. You are attempting to cloud an issue.
1. Spou...No. You are attempting to cloud an issue.<br /><br />1. Spouses can rape spouses. This is law.<br />2. Asleep means no consent. This is law.<br />3. There is no grey area of rape. The law outlines it quite clearly. Here is a link: http://www.edmontonpolice.ca/CommunityPolicing/PersonalPropertyCrimes/SexualAssault/WhatisSexualAssault.aspx<br /><br />4. One party decides after the fact that it's rape is a fallacy. The false rape conviction stats are rather consistent across several countries. People seem to assume that lack of conviction = false rape, but that has been debunked by lawyers, police, and social workers. Repeatedly. Do a google search. <br /><br />5. What is severely screwed up is how you are trying to drag the conversation away from the law.<br /><br />So, again, the default answer to, "Will you have sex with me?" is NO unless the words, "YES/Fuck me/ Let's do this/I love you and want you, etc" come out of the other person's mouth. <br /><br />So, if you wish be waking up your partner by touching him or her, have that conversation...WHEN THEY ARE AWAKE. So that way, you already have that consent.<br /><br />See? No grey area.Krista D. Ballhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13735832053631141449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-39980070798786601152013-03-19T15:16:22.269-04:002013-03-19T15:16:22.269-04:00I wasn't so much nit-picking that one example ...I wasn't so much nit-picking that one example as I was saying the bit about common sense.<br /><br />You either have to allow for common sense or you have to define it well enough that there's no need to use any. If you don't do either, you have plenty of gray areas that piss everyone off. You can even end up with situations where one party can decide <i>after the fact</i> whether it was rape or not and that is severely screwed up.The Mighty Buzzardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09703728129545347266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-12062801658717687272013-03-19T15:00:33.139-04:002013-03-19T15:00:33.139-04:00I don't know what about the law in your countr...I don't know what about the law in your country, but in mine (Canada), sex with an asleep person is rape.<br /><br />Now, true, there is some implied trust and consent with a partner. But if the partner says "stop" or "no" or "I'm tired, fuck off" you stop. Because, legally, it's sexual assault after that point.<br /><br />This is actually not that complicated.Krista D. Ballhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13735832053631141449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-48310930607593798472013-03-19T14:45:03.577-04:002013-03-19T14:45:03.577-04:00You think someone can consent to sex when they'...You think someone can consent to sex when they're asleep? <br /><br />I specifically said (right up there, above, under the first paragraph about consent and sleep) there are instances where this is done well in fiction, and yes, people in a relationship can, and do, wake one another up initiating sexual contact. <br /><br />But legally, and logically, someone cannot actually consent to sex if they're asleep whether by regular means or by being drugged/drunk as listed above. Since they aren't, y'know, <b>conscious</b> (this is <a href="http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2011/05/27/f-supreme-court-consent-interpretation.html" rel="nofollow">a thing</a>, legally). Skyla Dawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02094497198550621780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-87875176780945624672013-03-19T14:31:16.312-04:002013-03-19T14:31:16.312-04:00Sorry, I can't back you on the Asleep bit as a...Sorry, I can't back you on the Asleep bit as a blanket statement. You'd essentially have just called anyone who's ever woken their partner up by sexual means a rapist, when ninety-nine point some more nines percent of the time this would be anything but the case.<br /><br />Either common sense needs to play a role or definitions need to be more specific.The Mighty Buzzardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09703728129545347266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-40310821300512077552013-03-18T22:33:13.262-04:002013-03-18T22:33:13.262-04:00Thank you for reading! Thank you for reading! Skyla Dawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02094497198550621780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9009249011572927504.post-49353685820100136472013-03-18T21:41:40.299-04:002013-03-18T21:41:40.299-04:00Awesome. Thank you for writing this, because I tho...Awesome. Thank you for writing this, because I thoroughly agree that writers have an opportunity and a responsibility to affect our culture positively. I have been watching the Steubenville case closely for awhile. It reminds me of a story idea I had scribbled down somewhere. I feel more than ever it needs to be told. Thanks, again, sharing this!janflorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05687956873034047840noreply@blogger.com